The Need to ‘Update the Cover-Up’ Over Time

In episode #57 of Need to Know posted on October 16, 2024, hosts Bryce Zabel and Ross Coulthart bring on guest Richard Dolan to look into the topic of Unidentified Submerged Objects (USOs) and the broader realm of UFOs. The episode kicks off with an intriguing discussion about how the focus of UFO research often overlooks underwater phenomena and their potential origins. Dolan, an esteemed historian and ufologist, is praised by both hosts for his deep expertise, especially highlighted by his influential work, UFOs and the National Security State. Reflecting on their earlier collaborations, Dolan and Zabel recall the optimistic, albeit paradoxical, nature of their discussions on disclosure. Dolan expressed that while he once viewed the government’s revelation of UFO knowledge as both inevitable and impossible, the current landscape, according to him and Zabel, feels like a “slow dissolve” towards a possible “hard cut”—a sudden, undeniable disclosure event.

They contrast this gradual revelation of UFO information with the idea of a quick, dramatic shift in public awareness. Coulthart introduces a recent story involving Michael Shellenberger and the mysterious “Immaculate Constellation” project, leaving the hosts and Dolan speculating about its significance in the context of ongoing government UFO disclosure efforts. The conversation reflects a broader tension between expectation and reality in the world of UFO transparency.

Richard Dolan and the hosts discuss the long-standing efforts to push for UFO disclosure, noting how such efforts have historically been thwarted, but something feels different now. Dolan points out that the volume of UAP revelations has gained significant momentum, yet the resistance remains just as strong. He compares this shift to a new and improved “offense” in a football game, with more players and information, pressing harder than before. The discussion then shifts to Dolan’s current work on Unidentified Submerged Objects (USOs), revealing that he is now writing a three-volume series on the subject, covering over 672 cases dating as far back as 1717. Dolan explains that while some USO cases have emerged from myths, most involve serious, well-documented events. He emphasizes that USOs, like UFOs, have a rich history and are equally mind-blowing, particularly given the trans-medium capabilities of these objects.

The conversation touches on the Immaculate Constellation project, ongoing media projects by figures like George Knapp, and upcoming UAP hearings. Dolan gives an in-depth account of Shag Harbour, a famous 1967 incident in which witnesses saw an object enter the water, leading to extensive searches by Canadian authorities and speculation of a US-Soviet naval standoff. He suggests that the event may have involved a USO retrieval operation, potentially linked to the USS Nautilus submarine. Dolan also provides some background on his investigation into historical USO events, such as a 1964 case in Australia, underscoring the magnetic effects these objects can have on ships. He shares his method of rating the strength of evidence for each case, revealing a few that he considers certain, such as the Australian incident and others involving mysterious underwater phenomena. The conversation highlights how the USO phenomenon has been historically underrepresented but is now gaining greater attention within the broader context of UAP research.

In the final portion of the interview, Richard Dolan continues his discussion about UFO/UAP encounters and their broader societal implications. He highlights how witnesses often face skepticism and ridicule, using examples like the 2006 O’Hare Airport sighting, where witnesses were dismissed as potentially intoxicated. Dolan reflects on how such dismissive attitudes have long been a barrier to serious investigation, but also notes that, when pressed, authorities sometimes change their tune. He explains that serious research into UFO and USO phenomena tends to overcome such resistance, particularly in the military, where alcohol is clearly not a factor.

Richard Dolan touches on the need to “update the cover-up” over time. He suggests that as more UFO-related information leaks or becomes public knowledge, those in control of the secrecy surrounding UFOs may need to adjust their narrative to maintain credibility. Dolan believes that while there is increasing pressure for disclosure, the government may give up as little information as possible, gradually releasing only what is necessary to maintain control. He asserts that this process of disclosure, or lack thereof, will continue to evolve, with those in power carefully managing the information they allow to surface.

Dolan shares how his research has evolved, with detailed spreadsheets tracking patterns, such as the shift in UFO/USO sightings after 1968, when 75% of sightings began occurring at night. He ties this to deliberate behavior by the phenomena, suggesting a non-random, intentional intelligence behind these occurrences. He also discusses how electromagnetic (EM) effects have become a significant feature in these sightings, with military cases showing almost double the likelihood of EM interference.

Ross Coulthart introduces further details about USOs, specifically how witnesses often describe large objects entering the water without displacing it, which Dolan confirms as a common feature. He adds that some researchers, such as Carl Feindt, believed this might be related to a field around the objects that manipulates the surrounding water.

Carl Feindt was a dedicated UFO researcher, particularly focused on UFO interactions with water, a field often overlooked in ufology. His work, notably captured in his book UFOs and Water, explores the concept of Unidentified Submerged Objects (USOs) and the various ways these objects interact with water. Feindt suggested that UFOs may possess an energy or ionization field, which allows them to enter and exit water without the typical physical effects, like splashes or displacing large amounts of water. This aligns with witness reports describing how water seemed to open up or behave unusually around these objects.

Feindt’s theory proposes that this field could reduce friction, making it possible for UFOs to move seamlessly through water at high speeds, a feature he compared to anti-gravity technology. His research compiled over 750 cases of water-related UFO sightings, forming a substantial database that has been referenced in documentaries and symposiums, such as on the History Channel’s Deep-Sea UFOs.​

The interview concludes with a discussion of Dolan’s upcoming book series, A History of USOs: Anomalous Objects in Bodies of Water Around the World. He reveals that the project, spanning three volumes, covers incidents from 1717 to the present day, with the first volume expected to release in late 2024. Dolan admits that while full governmental disclosure is unlikely, his motivation stems from his personal curiosity and desire to document these events, offering readers a comprehensive look into the hidden history of USOs. The episode ends with a note of anticipation, as both the hosts and Dolan ponder whether any political changes in the upcoming election could impact UFO transparency.